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Question

Asked by: Mauricio
Subject: Vertical Lift.
Question: I was discussing in a Portuguese forum about this hypothetical model of vertical lift. The participants mentioned that additional tests are necessary and an answer can’t be provide only via conceptual way.

The hypothetical model:

We have a big plastic balloon almost without weighed. Inside of this plastic balloon we have small air planes moved by battery. They are flying continuously in a vertical looping. In the top of looping each airplane touch the "roof" of balloon with transfer of some kinetically energy.

Can we consider that in some situation of air plane speed and balloon weigh will be possible to do a vertical lift?

Note: If this hypothetical model "work" this air planes may be replace by small turbines in a ball format self accelerated.

Date: 13 December 2010
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Answers (Ordered by Date)


Answer: Glenn Hawkins - 13/12/2010 18:40:49
 Hi Mauricio,

Your names seems familiar. Have you posted here a long time ago? Didn’t we talk?

The idea you inquire about in rather ingenious, but it won‘t work. A half-dozen years ago, a very cleaver fellow I knew from California came up with almost the same idea. He called it the ‘Rocket Balloon’. We put enough time into the idea to understand what happens. Always the reactions of air, wind and force and the plastic membrane itself will adjust and compensate so that there is no external gain or lose in total and over all placement and direction of the balloon. Your plastic sphere will only oscillate, but its entire body will not move from one grid in space to another.

I once ask what if an astronaut leaned back against the inside of his spacecraft compartment and began throwing a base ball back and forth, bouncing it off the opposite wall hard repeatedly and catching it softly. The answer is that all forces are compensated to apply equally and oppositely uniformly, just as they do in your idea.

The three laws of motion are infallible. They can never be overcome. We can trick ourselves with clever postulations, but it is impossible to avoid the three laws of motion no mater how much beautiful logic we conceive and apply.

I am sorry, but the only chance for inertial propulsion is in the functions of a gyroscope. The laws are still unbreakable and exist in all gyroscopic functions, however they can be twisted to act at a distance in time and place and alignment so that the reactions are moved and can be even be twisted to act at right angles.

You are interesting, enjoy the Holidays,
Glenn


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Answer: patrick - 25/12/2010 04:34:44
 mauricio

goble de gook to me write clearer or ring my mobile phone,england 07766748196

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Answer: Mauricio - 26/12/2010 01:59:10
 Glenn thank you, yes! we talked a few years ago.

A happy new year to you too!

We discussed a similar theme, but this hypothetical model with the correct proportions the airplanes will fly inside the ball, because they are supported by air and inside of ball and if they collide with the top of the ball, some energy will be transferred.

In the example that you mentioned, the astronaut who throws an object in a vacuum without gravity, while throws the object he is pushed in the opposite direction with the same force and intensity so that the movements cancel.

I would use this same example that you mentioned for another related question.

We have a box, very lightweight and super tough. In each side of a box we have a launcher balls, we may consider tennis balls, this device throws the balls one against to the other.

As you mentioned! The two divices will throw balls at the same time one against to the other, the opposing forces will cancel mutually and we have no movement.

Inside the box we have a ball going one toward the other, when the balls collide will cancel its energy producing no movement.

Now let's modify, the balls are rotation in a speed rotation in the direction motion, for example, left to right and vice versa, one rotates clockwise and the other in a counterclockwise direction.

The two balls collide and due to the gisroscope effect it will try to maintain its motion, colliding with the top of the box. The balls may fall to be launched again.

Is there any speed and force for these balls that allowed to overcome the weight of whole sistem?

Some researchers with who I talked claim that model requires testing!

Patrick I will try to call you!


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Answer: Glenn Hawkins - 29/12/2010 02:37:04
 Hi Mauricio,

You said ,“. . . the airplanes will fly inside the ball, because they are supported by air and inside of ball and if they collide with the top of the ball, some energy will be transferred.”

Consider: Supported by air how? All types of airplanes, fixed wings too must push air downward in order to stay aloft. For ease of understanding let us consider a helicopter. It lifts itself by pushing air down downward. The air downward rushing air collides with the bottom of the sphere and bounces back up the sides of the sphere. When the bounced upward air reaches the top of the speare, it bounced back downward colliding into the helicopter, forcing the helicopter fall, unless it pushes more air harder downward.

If a fixed wing craft looping inside the sphere bounced against the top, the craft would be forced downward with the same force that the spear was force upward. Then the craft would have to push air downward harder in order to try to stay aloft. The additional force of the downward air would collide into the bottom of the sphere canceling what ever force was applied upward to the top of the sphere by the plane. We just can’t cheat the equal and opposite law.

Next you said, “We have a box, very lightweight . . .”
You understand perfectly and I love the clear writing. Its called expository and no one could fail to understand your well ordered explanation, though the subject is demanding. Well done.

The first part you understand perfectly. . . until you spin the balls expecting a propulsion advantage. All spinning forces will be compensated for. There is no advantage. Equal and opposite rules always, in all ways.

Unless your spinning balls contain the same mass, have the same diameter, the same areas of mass displacement and have the same spin speed, then upon collision they will separate in opposite directions with each carrying the same equal and opposite momentum into impact. The spear may be stretched into opposite directions and oscillate for a while like an accordion, but ultimately its center of gravity will not advance anywhere.

Still, this is a very thoughtful piece of work you’ve done. I once racked my brain with quite a similar example.

Theoretically, upon collision, everything being equal, the balls should rotate, each against the other uniformly with nothing gained or lost (except by friction) then separate bouncing back in a straight line from where they came.

If the balls are not equal in weight (mass) then they will separate at angles up to 90 degrees, which is as you suppose. However, the lighter one will separate at a greater speed and the heavier at a slower speed. Both will carry the same momentum and deliver the same amount of force in opposite directions.

The phenomenon the gyroscopic offers you is the only hope. Certainly, no other way is possible.

I was glad to here from you. Have fun and a great coming year.

Regards,
Glenn

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Answer: Mauricio - 29/12/2010 11:31:58
 Glenn,

Thank you a lot for your so clever comments, but the problem of hypothetical models are the missing variables. In the hypothetical model of air planes under your comments we need to consider the size of ball versus de size of airplanes. With a very big ball and very small air planes I´m not sure that the result will be the same. Probably the result may be different due the time of air flow!

In the case of hypothetical tennis balls that collide one against to the other, some variables not mentioned need to be considered like, the power/force of balls collision and the power/ force of spinning. If in the “horizontal” movement when the balls collide the remaining force is not enough to push then back then we have as domain force the balls spinning and the attrition between them. In the test that I did with soccer balls spinning the balls gone up in a angle of almost 45o degrees between them! In addition when the balls spinning in a very high speed, with the air attrition the balls move in angle. What I did wrong in my test?

The idea will be to reproduce these test in a atomic scale. I´m not sure but I think that in a atomic accelerator when the atoms collide going one against to the other the same happen.

Mauricio

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