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| Asked by: |
Glenn Hawkins |
| Subject: |
Another old test |
| Question: |
Hello Gang,
I kept reading Blaze's excellent work. This morning very early I went out side to redo an old test. I found the remnants still intact. I had welded a steel rod the diameter less that a coat hanger onto the knob end of a Tedco gyroscope. The length was about 1 ½”. I also found one I had used a paper clip, or was it two, to wrap around the guard ring and function the same way. Since I had two, I tested two. I set a polished granite tile on the floor. Beside that I sat a narrow up-right box led (like a shoe box led)
I oiled up the gyro and wrapped a 20' pull string around it and gave it a yank. When I sat the extended rod on the granite, the pivot end rotated around the gyro much more than the gyro precessed around the pivot. The gyroscope was indeed trying to rotate around it's center of mass and it came close to doing that.
Nest I used a 36” pull string and pulled hard and quick. The gyro was really flying. I sat it down and the long arm tip hardly moved-- a little. The gyro precessed into the box quickly and knocked it over.
How many times have we clunked into little boxes, clinked into a drinking glass and knocked over stuff, yet still the arguments issue, weight, dead weight, perfect gyro, no mass, no momentum, friction and center of gravity rotation?
Blaze is about to test again with bigger and greater power and that is good. Blaze, I suggest you put casters on your pedestal. You are being careful, so all I can say is Good Luck,
Glenn
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| Date: |
27 May 2012
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Answers (Ordered by Date)
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| Answer: |
Blaze - 27/05/2012 18:53:11
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| | Hi Glenn. Those two tests you did are good. Thank you for posting the results. Just wondering, for the one where the pivot rotated somewhat around the gyro, was that continuous or just a large jerk movement?
I recently repeated Luis' experiment where he used a lazy susan to force the pivot to precess, only I used meccano. It worked perfectly well, the gyro stayed at the same height until the gyro started to spin down, and then of course the wheel started to drop. In my case the pivot was only allowed vertical movement just like Luis' experiment. Interesting thing is that when the pivot was allowed to move freely in all directions, the gyro would precess around the pivot, the pivot would NOT precess around the gyro.
Blazing on,
Blaze
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| Answer: |
Glenn Hawkins - 27/05/2012 21:54:57
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| | Hi Blaze,
Hi Blaze,
The pivot rotated 'absolutely' around the gyro and very fast. The gyroscope’s precession was about equal to the pivot, or less than. The extend arm soon sled outward from underneath the decreasing rotation speed and that ended that. It is obvious what I did. I increased the til force as the shaft was extended to act like a stronger lever. Stronger tilt force over balanced against normal angular momentum. The effect was that gyroscopic conditions were overwhelmed.
By using a very long pull string I increased the RPM to match and balance against the extra tilt force. As I said, this time the gyro acted normally, but it seemed quicker with more power and knocked the box over reasonable hard and fast. There was never a jerk movement at anytime-- continuous only.
The beauty of this experiment is that anybody here can repeat it with a half-hour's fiddling with a paper clip (are was it two clips?).
You will, as you know find a great momentum force. You even understand why there was so little in the video experiments.
I have several times though the years almost attempted to dissuade against the old and wrong ideas that there is no momentum, no mass and no centrifuge. All those things are there, but nobody seems willing to follow me into the how and why they are held in check by countering forces that can be removed.
There is just nothing magical, weird or spooky, but there is a great unique after effect. The laws of motion are followed to the T, followed exactly without an exception--- but the manipulation of these natural, universal (I guess) laws produces a final happening in the gyroscope that disobeys the the very laws that built it.
We wait like a nervous bridesmaid, but you are going to have to spin the heck out of that thing and you may have to shorten the shaft. As to the counter balancing weight, I wish you didn't have to use it. Maybe you could try it both ways.
Good luck,
Glenn
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Harry K. - 28/05/2012 09:20:39
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| | Hello Glenn,
Very, very good and easy experiment! It proves what I tried to explain over all these years in this forum:
- Precession movement occurs around the centre of spinning mass if there is the degree of freedom to do and if involved counter forces (friction, etc.) are small enough.
- Angular momentum is stored in precession movement.
I apologise that I did not read your postings carefully enough to recognize that we are in line with our understanding how gyroscopes work.
Your obervations are similar as in the video which I have posted in another thread:
http://m.youtube.com/results?gl=DE&client=mv-google&hl=de&q=npEiWL9gyFU&submit=Suchen
Your experiment as well as the experiment in the video proves that precession occurs around the gyro's centre of mass if the friction at the pivot will be minimized.
To convince Nitro and others, could you upload a video of your experiment on youtube?
Best regards,
Harry
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Harry K. - 28/05/2012 09:27:57
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| | Hello Blaze,
If he gyro precesses around the pivot and not around the bearing of the lazy susan, then this is an indication that friction at the bearing of the lazy susan is higher than friction at the pivot. Maybe you did not align the centre of the gyro exactly enough to the centre of the lazy susan?
Good luck with your experiments and be careful!
Best regards,
Harry
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Momentus - 28/05/2012 10:42:30
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| | Harry K
Watched your video, most disappointing. Keep your hands off!!. Why did you need to give the gyroscope a shove to start it precessing??
Yet again the centre of mass MOVES. You have proved nothing, nor will you until the centre of mass stays steady and still, as it should by all the laws of classical physics.
Do the damned experiment properly, extend the arm to give separation of the pivot and mass, release remotely.
Speed of gyroscope spin also effects this experiment, fast is good.
Look at a proper experiment by a professional lab here.
Gyroscope precessing on an air table.
http://www2.eng.cam.ac.uk/~hemh/gyroscopes/icegyro.html
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Momentus - 28/05/2012 10:57:11
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| | Nitro.
Had not read your post giving Dr Hugh Hunt’s Gyroscope page when I wrote the above post.
There are none so blind as those who will not see. There is a belief system at work here. There is no evidence that will convince a proponent of Intelligent Design that Darwin had a good theory.
There is no evidence that will convince Ram or Harry et al.
Really must stop posting and go back to talking to the dog.
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Harry K. - 28/05/2012 11:00:52
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| | Hello Momentus,
The video is not made by myself I found it on youtube.
Thank you for the link to the video with the air table which I have already seen.
It seems the puck is made of metal (alluminum?) which causes additional dead weight mass. Thus the centre of all involved mass will be displaced away from centre of spinning mass. Anyway you can see that the fulcrum (puck) does not jerk but rotate in precession direction.
Let`s wait if Glenn may upload his video.
Harry
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Harry K. - 28/05/2012 11:05:48
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| | "There are none so blind as those who will not see. There is a belief system at work here. There is no evidence that will convince a proponent of Intelligent Design that Darwin had a good theory. "
CONFIRMED!
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Glenn Hawkins - 28/05/2012 14:53:26
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| | Hi Harry,
It is always a pleasure to hear from you. I apologize that my post of experiments and conclusions were not written more clearly.
In the first series of tests:
Actually it is my contention that when there is not enough angular momentum, velocity x mass x radius, to support the gyro, the factor of dead weight presents itself. Because the pull string was short, the RPM were low. Because of the extended, welded shaft the leverage of tilt force was in creased. The lesser the angular momentum coupled with the greater tilt force causes the gyroscope to partially act like dead weight.
The second tests:
The pull string was long. This allowed me to increase the RPM, giving the gyroscope greater angular momentum, which caused it precess around its pivot, even given the increased tilt force- - - The gyro precessed around its pivot quite fast.
If one is not certain, it is best to do this experiment. You can 'play' with it any way you wish, until you are satisfied.
Again I apologize that I was not clear. I am stating that my gyro, with increased RPMs to properly balance forces, rotated around its pivot and delivered a blow of momentum into a box lead.
Cordially, Respectfully Yours,
Glenn
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Ram Firestone - 28/05/2012 15:26:11
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| | You are aware Glenn that the faster the gyroscope is spinning the slower the precession and therefor any friction will more easily keep the pivot from moving? Wait let me guess… I’m wrong, I have no understanding of these things, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera …….
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Glenn Hawkins - 28/05/2012 17:02:34
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| | …...........................................................................................................................................
As I wrote, the precession was fast. An extended steel tip resting at a 45o angle on polished granite produces a friction force equal to 1/1,000,000 the force of gravity on an extra levered gyroscope? ? ?
…...........................................................................................................................................
Bless your heart my illegitimate child. The last time I saw your sand-hill tacky mother as I was leaving the truckstop in Dogpatch, she was out in the meadow grazing where I had found her. Please give her my regards.
My dear knowledgeable Ram. Please see the well intended humor. I couldn't help it. It just hit me. I see that you are a very intelligent man and clever and I truly respect you for that, I just don't agree with you about gyroscopes.
Respectfully Yours,
Glenn
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Ram Firestone - 28/05/2012 18:28:25
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| | I guess it was too much to expect I could convince you of anything, however I have to admit that I didn't expect slut or cow jokes about my mother. I suppose you figure it's OK as long as you follow it with things like "well intended humor" even though I’m sure how anyone would consider that humorous. I think I'll just refrain from any responses to your posts form now on and avoid the not so veiled insults.
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Glenn Hawkins - 28/05/2012 18:58:08
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| | I am in deed sorry, Ram. There is a culture of mama jokes out there. I do not believe your feelings were hurt, that is too petty for me, but I won't do it again out of respect for you wish and was sincere in telling you I respect you, and by the way your dear mama too.
As for refraining from responding to me, thank you. How many arguments have you won? How many minds have you changed? It's a broken record isn't it, Ram?
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Glenn Hawkins - 28/05/2012 19:01:40
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| | In the first series of tests:
Actually it is my contention that when there is not enough angular momentum, velocity x mass x radius, to support the gyro, the factor of dead weight presents itself. Because the pull string was short, the RPM were low. Because of the extended, welded shaft the leverage of tilt force was in creased. The lesser the angular momentum coupled with the greater tilt force causes the gyroscope to partially act like dead weight.
To clear the muddy water, I'm reasserting what I think might be helpful.
The second tests:
The pull string was long. This allowed me to increase the RPM, giving the gyroscope greater angular momentum, which caused it precess around its pivot, even given the increased tilt force- - - The gyro precessed around its pivot quite fast.
If one is not certain, it is best to do this experiment. You can 'play' with it any way you wish, until you are satisfied.
Again I apologize that I was not clear. I am stating that my gyro, with increased RPMs to properly balance forces, rotated around its pivot and delivered a blow of momentum into a box lead.
Cordially, Respectfully Yours,
Glenn
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Harry K. - 28/05/2012 21:37:09
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| | Hello Glenn,
Again, you did a great job with doing your experiment and you do not have to apologise for anything because it was my fault not reading your posting carefully enough!
What do you think, would it be possible to uplad a video on youtube? I would be very curious to watch your experiment.
By the way I believe Ram is on the same track as we, isn`t he? Humor is a difficullt thing if presented in written words. I hope you too was not offended about my Alzheimer comment because this was only a joke, nothing more.
Thank you for your top-class contributions in this forum and go ahead!
Cordially with best regards,
Harry
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Glenn Hawkins - 28/05/2012 22:41:11
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| | I love you Harry. I don't have a digital camera. Someday I will.
Too bad about Ram. Best wishes to he and his saintly mother. Mothers are the most wonderful of all.
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