Home : Gallery : History : Uses : Behaviour : Maths : Forum : Propulsion : Links : Glossary
Main Forum Page

The Gyroscope Forum

27 April 2017 11:59

Welcome to the gyroscope forum. If you have a question about gyroscopes in general, want to know how they work, or what they can be used for then you can leave your question here for others to answer. You may also be able to help others by answering some of the questions on the site.

Search the forum:  
 

Question

Asked by: Momentus
Subject: Prof. Laithwaite’s experiment with a spinning top
Question:
I am using a web content clipping app to organise some of my notes.
https://evernote.com/evernote/
One of the demos that the Prof showed me was of a brass top, which he spun up and placed on a metal plate, at an angle of 45 degrees. The top precessed as gyros do, demonstrating the absence of centripetal force.
I have a recollection of seeing this online, but cannot find it.
Does anyone know of a video clip?
Momentus
Date: 3 February 2015
report abuse


Answers (Ordered by Date)


Answer: Sandy Kidd - 03/02/2015 19:59:26
 Good evening Momentus,
I had trouble trying to access the “Heretic” film on the home page of this site
However you can see what you want in a YouTube presentation called
“Prof Eric Laithewaite - Inertial Propulsion Film” which is in fact the “Heretic” film.
Try about the 11th minute in.
Quality is not so good though.
Sandy.


Report Abuse
Answer: Momentus - 04/02/2015 15:52:50
 Thanks Sandy,
Yes that is the demo. It always struck me as being convincing evidence, as the co-efficient of friction of a vibrating hardened steel point is effectively zero!
Momentus


Report Abuse
Answer: Glenn Hawkins - 21/02/2015 20:08:41
 Actually, vibrating of the needle point would not lessen the friction at the pivot. In any case I agree, there is hardly any friction there as you point out.

To test this vibration idea, I considered constructing a platform with 4 posts at the corners that slide down into tubes. It would be leveled and underneath I would put a reciprocating saw pointed upward with the blade broken off to shorten it. (See on Youtube) In this way the height distance of the platform vibrations could be adjusted to greater or lesser. Also the RPM of the reciprocating saw could be varied as wished to cause vibrations from 3 per second; to 500 per second.

Before I began I realized that a falling gyroscope or a gyroscope thrown upward would not process. It must have a base to support the end of the shaft to rest upon while gravity acts on the gyro to force it down. Therefore, while the gyroscope was in the air, bounced/vibrated upwards, or falling back to the platform there would be no precession and the gyroscope would simply fall in the same line, plan and area as a non-spinning gyro. As for the extra force and friction on the end of the needle point shaft at impact, it would be far too little to make a difference. The conclusion is that vibrations don’t count; they make no difference.

This experiment is juxtaposed with opposite results to Blaze’s; where a heavy gyroscope is mounted on a wagon. The wagon moves back and forth-- not toward centrifuge which would occur aliened in the direction of the wheels; but sideways to them. This would indicate centrifuge is not showing up, but an EQUAL reaction between the orbiting gyro and the pivot point is.

This equal reaction has stopped me in my tracks from building a model to test for inertial propulsion. So far I cannot find a way around it.

I know why existing centrifuge does not show up in wagon and vibrating point and I started to explain it but to heck with it; but what I have pointed out here is a strange condition. Something that is so strange that nobody understands mechanically how if functions. I have noted this pneumonia for twenty years.
In other words; WHY is it THE TWO EXPERIENCE DO NOT SUPPORT ONE ANOTHER?


Report Abuse
Answer: Momentus - 22/02/2015 12:09:06
 Hi Glenn
I too have wondered about Blaze’s wagon. The only time that I have seen anything similar is when the offset Gyro is not released cleanly, that it experiences some form of drag during the release phase and is not allowed to precess cleanly.
Were Blaze to repeat his experiment I am confident that it would behave in same way that all gyros do when cleanly (no hands) released to precess and there would be no problem.
As to why science ignores the phenomena? I am working on that.

Momentus



Report Abuse
Answer: Glenn Hawkins - 25/02/2015 17:16:04
 Hi Momentus
Over the course of years I have often wondered about something seemingly imposable. Does the gyro/top have, but does not show, equal and opposite reaction at the pivot; except and only when it is denied the POSSIBILITY of movement. Perhaps the gyro/top does react, but in continuous increments so minutely small during its orbits that they are undetectable to the necked eye. If this were so; then when the reactions were denied, no matter how small they would always be in the process of occurring in the past because they were and are continuously denied. Therefore the tiny movement being denied, a larger and visible reaction races to catch up. This is quite a stretch of the imagination and is just a what-if, Momentus.
Your suggestion was a very interesting proposition, which was that sometimes the release is such that it causes a nutation like warbling; if I understood, and consequently a pivotal reaction occurs. You suggest that either can happen depending on the release. I hope that would be true.
Another thing interests me; you suggest that at release the gyro begins precessing about as an instantaneously in reaction as it gets. Remember the vibrating table I proposed in the last post? As the gyro vibrated vertically, precession should occur in horizontal coinciding vibrating increments. It would be interesting to film in slow motion and note. I am sure precession would react by jerking the gyro continuously around its pivot.
Blaze hi, Tell us if every time the same thing happened.
Glenn,


Report Abuse
Answer: Harry K. - 25/02/2015 19:51:30
 Hi Glenn,

"As the gyro vibrated vertically, precession should occur in horizontal coinciding vibrating increments."

I think this will not happen because of the gyro's inertia.
Depending on the frequency of the vertical vibrations there will not be enough time to deflect and accelerate the gyro in horizontal plane.

You go round in circles. ;-)

Regards,
Harald

Report Abuse
Answer: Glenn Hawkins - 26/02/2015 02:17:36
 Hi Harry,

You miss the point. My point was ‘IF’ it were that a gyroscope reacts instantaneously, as Momentus has put forth, then inertia would not play a roll. All reactions would be instantaneous including the cessation of inertia.

WAIT! Did I say that would happen? . . . No. I did not.

Maybe you could plead with lovely wife to translate for you before you misinterpret what I say and then accuse me of going in circles.

Why did you come on board to say to me I go in circles. Not that I do in fact in fact; but why do you feel it is kosher for you to say that to me? I did not address you discourteously.

Glenn,


Report Abuse
Answer: Glenn Hawkins - 26/02/2015 02:17:44
 Hi Harry,

You miss the point. My point was ‘IF’ it were that a gyroscope reacts instantaneously, as Momentus has put forth, then inertia would not play a roll. All reactions would be instantaneous including the cessation of inertia.

WAIT! Did I say that would happen? . . . No. I did not.

Maybe you could plead with lovely wife to translate for you before you misinterpret what I say and then accuse me of going in circles.

Why did you come on board to say to me I go in circles. Not that I do in fact in fact; but why do you feel it is kosher for you to say that to me? I did not address you discourteously.

Glenn,


Report Abuse
Answer: Harry K. - 26/02/2015 06:16:10
 Why? Because I do not see any progress in understanding in all these years, although you claimed to be the only one beside God who knows everything about gyros. By the way did you finished your book?

Cheers
Harald

Report Abuse
Answer: Momentus - 26/02/2015 12:04:43
 Hi Glen.
The offset gyro does not react equally and oppositely with the support pivot. Not on start up, not on further precession.
These forces or the absence of these forces can be measured. It is not a question of “I think” or “my theory”. The magnitude of the forces is a fact which can be determined by experiment.
Regarding the instantaneous nature of gyroscopic action, this is a fact given in all reference works on gyrodynamics together with the mathematical explanation of why they are instantaneous. Again not “wot i think”.
Precession is the deflection of the existing inertia of the flywheel, not the creation of more or less inertia. The direction can be and is changed instantly.
My experiment on changing the torque applied to a gyro, was to hang the offset gyro from a long bungee cord, stretch the cord and release. The speed of precession changed constantly from a max on release to a standstill at apogee. I would expect this to be the case in the extreme conditions proposed by Glenn, if it were possible to measure it.
Harry K
Hello again, I got your joke, it was not offensive :-)
From the above it is apparent that time is not a factor. The vibrations from Glenn’s table would be reflected in the precessional speed of the gyro, it would vibrate in the horizontal plane.


Report Abuse
Answer: Glenn Hawkins - 26/02/2015 12:26:03
 Hi Harry, old man, cherry-oh and all, (Did I get that right Momentus?)

Harry, you have progressed? . . .You have discovered something unknown to mathematicians during these years? You miss my inquiry again I am afraid. . . . Why . . . do you care if I am God? Why have you found in necessary to take it upon yourself an effort to straighten me out? How much of your mind do I occupy these days for you to favor me so with your delirious acumen. You like thinking about me, huh. God and I are blushing, Harry. We both feel complemented by the comparison of each of us to the other. We have agreed after much smiling and head nodding, He and I, to thank you very much. Keep it up, old boy. A stiff upper lip and all. (How’m doin’ Momentus?)

The book is finished plus a movie script and 80% of a play. I have been searching unsuccessfully for a professor of English to edit it for me. All books must be edited by one other than the writer. Thank you for asking Harry. You are just a chip off the old block. (Momentus?)

It snowed over a foot last night. It is beautiful as I live in a forest. Thank God for the brilliant German engineers who built in my auto a push button that turns the marvelous machine into positraction (two wheel drive). Thank you Germany!

I was out earlier in the day to see about my boat at the marina (Only an American made boat—the best I could do, Harry). She was setting majestically silent and riding high, surrounded by a sheet of thin ice. It was freezing on the lake with wind and all so I left, but I longed to hear the big twin engines muffering up from the water at idle speed. Bluuu, bluuu, bluuu. There is no other sound like it. I love it so. I am going to ware her out this summer through the green cannons and river gorges here on the Tennessee River. If you make over the pond maybe you will concede to burring the hatchet (stopping all hostility) and float all the way down to Mississippi with me like Huck Finn and old Jim. I will be Huck and you can be Jim.

I am not annoyed Harry. Bless you. God and I love a sinner. (Sometimes I don’t know which one I am. You have confused me terribly this morning.)

I hope all is well with you knew little one and family, friends and work.
Glenn,

P.S Harry I do like you. All funning aside, you are one of my favorite people on the internet.


Report Abuse
Answer: Glenn Hawkins - 26/02/2015 12:29:16
 Excellent work Momentus.

Report Abuse
Answer: Harry K. - 26/02/2015 13:46:23
 Hello Momentus,

Yes it was only a joke and I did not expected such angry reaction from Glenn. Sorry for break in this thread. Maybe you are right regarding the deflection of vibrations in precession plane. I have to rethink about this.

Hello Glenn aka God ;-)

"You have discovered something unknown to mathematicians during these years?"
Maybe? Maybe 3835not? Nobody knows...

Please send me a copy of your book if you have finished it. I'm very curious about this new bible! :-)

Regards,
Harald

Report Abuse
Answer: Harry K. - 26/02/2015 13:47:01
 Hello Momentus,

Yes it was only a joke and I did not expected such angry reaction from Glenn. Sorry for break in this thread. Maybe you are right regarding the deflection of vibrations in precession plane. I have to rethink about this.

Hello Glenn aka God ;-)

"You have discovered something unknown to mathematicians during these years?"
Maybe? Maybe 3835not? Nobody knows...

Please send me a copy of your book if you have finished it. I'm very curious about this new bible! :-)

Regards,
Harald

Report Abuse
Answer: Harry K. - 26/02/2015 13:50:53
 Sorry for double posting! Forget about "3835" in the text.

Report Abuse
Answer: Glenn Hawkins - 26/02/2015 16:32:46
 Dear Harry K,
Please, please, please know I was not angry. I was being sarcastic as it is intended for humor primarily and mostly. I kept writing you as if God and I were having a great old time; laughing it up at your expense.

I will be more careful next time. I meant it when I said you were one of my favorite people on here. I am not sure if I will be published. If I am I will send you a copy.

I have got to get out in this snow. It is like I was in the mountains above Grafenwoehr doing cold weather maneuvers again.

Don't take any wooden nickles. That is an American joke. It does not actually have a meaning, but it is friendly. It has been fun hearing from you after so long.

I probably will get back to my things stacking up and needing to be taken care of and may not write for a while but I do read you guys always.

Sincerely Glenn,

Report Abuse
Add an Answer >>
Website. Copyright © 2017 Glenn Turner. All rights reserved. site info
Do not copy without prior permission. Click here for gyroscope products