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23 April 2024 12:07
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Welcome to the gyroscope forum. If you have a question about gyroscopes in general,
want to know how they work, or what they can be used for then you can leave your question here for others to answer.
You may also be able to help others by answering some of the questions on the site.
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Question |
| Asked by: |
Sandy |
| Subject: |
Interesting and fundamental gyroscopic anomalies |
| Question: |
Good evening shed dwellers,
I am attempting to create some interest by posting this rather long text.
I also wish to impart some fundamentals which are completely at odds with establishment beliefs and hopefully help struggling players in this game.
I am now 85 years of age and have experimented in producing one-way thrust for 63 of those years.
I have gained a great deal of experience in the operation of gyroscopes and learned many lessons
If those fundamentals are followed the whole problem of producing “inertial thrust” will become a great deal easier.
I am attempting to save enthusiasts years of their lives invariably in futile attempts to solve the problem using accepted principles.
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The following are some anomalies found to be present in certain types of mechanical systems containing gyroscopes or flywheels which as yet are not considered by the establishment.
1. The only cases I know of where a gyroscope will appear to float above the horizontal, of its own volition, are whilst operating in a gravity accelerated system in precession, or in a mechanically accelerated system in saturation.
A gyroscope in a gravity accelerated system is one effectively in decay and therefore dropping whilst a gyroscope in a mechanically accelerated system is absorbing energy and rising
Contrary to what the clever people say, in either case there is no angular momentum or centrifugal force present, which is not much good for our uses in an inertial drive system.
2 A gyroscope in a machine with a fixed mechanical rotation speed will show a loss of centrifugal force at the gyroscope, if the rotation speed of the gyroscope is increased, and will show an increase in centrifugal force if the rotation speed is reduced.
I have avoided using the term angular momentum which is really more suitable but less easily understood by the average person, but you cannot have one without the other anyway even if they are different animals.
It will be realised that if this is true, it casts serious doubts on the credibility of the conservation laws, in this case the separate conservation of angular momentum.
3 Centrifugal force will be at a maximum when there is no gyroscope rotation, however at the other end of the scale, when the gyroscope rotation speed is sufficiently raised the gyroscope will reach what is commonly called precession, but what I call for other reasons the “saturation point” where, and only at this point, centrifugal force has totally disappeared and the gyroscope will then accelerate inwards and upwards, until it is mechanically stopped.
If not mechanically halted, until such time as the plane of rotation of the gyroscope is at right angles to the axis of machine or system rotation, i.e. as far as it can go, or the position of least action.
At this point the gyroscope rotation axis and system or hub rotation axis effectively become the same.
4 Assume that the machine is a plain twin opposed gyroscope system.
When operating below the saturation point it would be almost impossible to judge the amount of centrifugal force lost due to the effect of any gyroscope rotation speed.
Only the addition of strain gauges to the machine would inform you of this.
When operating below the saturation point, as there are no visual clues, it would be very hard to know, apart from serious imbalance, if one gyroscope was rotating faster than the other.
Remember that a gyroscope will only accelerate upwards if it is operating in the “saturation zone” or in precession.
5 I have already stated that from the point precession starts or the saturation point is reached there is no farther increase of energy into the system, whilst the gyroscope travels vertically through 90 degrees without stopping.
There is no possible balance point on the way.
In fact this very thing this hypothetical balance point was subject to much heated discussion on this forum some time back.
The most intriguing thing is that the system will be found to be rotating without acceleration.
No angular momentum.
No centrifugal force.
No accelerated mass.
Just a vision somewhat like a holograph of the system magically rotating with no measurable inertia.
I stated back in 2004 that:
“No mass cannot be accelerated”
Sandy Kidd |
| Date: |
26 October 2022
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Answers (Ordered by Date)
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| Answer: |
Harry K. - 26/10/2022 23:24:47
| | | Hello all,
I would also like to contribute an interesting gyro behavior:
A gyroscope basket is mounted horizontally on a turntable, i.e. the rotation axes lof the turntable and the gyroscope are both aligned vertically.
The axis of rotation of the gyroscope has any distance to the axis of rotation of the rotary table, but must not be congruent.
The rotational axis of the kreiselst is mounted to swivel, and it does not matter in which direction it swivels. This rotary axis should be able to swivel at least 180°.
The gyro is brought to any speed.
1. if now the turntable is turned in the same direction as the gyro, nothing happens. I.e., the gyro remains in its horizontal position.
2. if the turntable is turned in the opposite sense to the gyro, the gyro swings 180° until it again has the same counter again turntable.
What I find amazing is what exact forces cause the circle, previously in a stable horizontal position, to start swinging!?
Conclusion: the gyroscope does everything to get into the same counter as the turntable. if it would not do this, angular momentum would be lost from the total system, which is not possible because of the conservation of energy.
Conversely, the overall system André gains momentum if the circles and the turntable have the same sense of rotation.
Sandy, that's why the two circles in your example climb up to get into the same sense of rotation.
Regards Harald
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| Answer: |
MakeThingsFly - 27/10/2022 03:55:36
| | | Sandy, can you share more about what is your experience with a "“saturation point” where, and only at this point, centrifugal force has totally disappeared".
What is this?
What does this look/feel like that you know the centrifugal force has disappeared?
-Aaron
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| Answer: |
MakeThingsFly - 27/10/2022 03:55:39
| | | Sandy, can you share more about what is your experience with a "“saturation point” where, and only at this point, centrifugal force has totally disappeared".
What is this?
What does this look/feel like that you know the centrifugal force has disappeared?
-Aaron
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| Answer: |
Sandy - 27/10/2022 14:40:02
| | | Evening Aaron,
Damned good question.
I discovered this fact 38 years ago or thereabouts
I posted to this forum in 2004 what transpired when testing my second machine and the fact that I was totally shocked by what I saw.
Everything about that machine operated in reverse.
I will send a copy of that posting to you on email.
I chased these “symptoms” down from that point on although my primary concern was the loss of centrifugal force as the gyroscope rotation speed is
Increased this making a useful inertial drive impossible.
This total loss of centrifugal force to me explained away the “notion” of precession in a much simpler fashion.
Being an engineer it seemed impossible to me to see a mass being rapidly rotated around a fixed point on a shaft then by this so called magical precession it raises itself to an angle from plus something to 90 degrees and still maintains its mass the whole way up.
An inertial drive would be much too easy to make
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Consider a passive or gravity accelerated system.
If the gyroscope is precessing at 45 degrees, there must be a vertical component a “lifting” factor involved in precession.
However, you will not find one.
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I have tended to stay with mechanically accelerated systems for obvious reasons, but in the end the results are the same.
So, what I call “saturation “, is, for the good reason that once the gyroscope is in this ascending mode no amount of rotational speed increase in either the gyroscope or the system has any effect on the centrifugal force (or if you wish angular momentum) but will only serve to increase the upward acceleration of the gyroscope. (Hence saturation)
This has to be seen to be believed but I assure you that in any similar system the results will be the same.
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I attempted to display the loss of centrifugal force in such systems to the interested by demonstrating “Antigravity Machine No 3” on YouTube"
I think I proved my point but there are so many self-opinionated sofa scientists who claim it was all precession.
A totally wasted effort, as the input speed of the gyroscopes was nowhere near precession speed.
I built a much more comprehensive device soon after which demonstrated my claims from a device running with a variable but predetermined fixed “hub” rotation speed, and variable gyroscope rotation speed which could be altered from zero rpm until precession or saturation speed rpm.
The device was fully instrumented with radio control on all drive, and drive telemetry results displayed on my RC Transmitter.
It was fitted with strain gauges for measuring centrifugal force on the swivelling arms and slip rings for input power and another set for strain gauge monitoring.
This was an extreme measure designed to prove my claims, which it easily did but I decided from that moment on I was wasting my time.
However, I shall send some photos for you to your email address for your perusal.
Without invoking any of my claims, accidentally or otherwise into the construction of my machines I would never have been able to produce inertial thrust on a transient or consistent basis.
By the way why do you think Professor Laithwaite’s big gyroscope became weightless and showed no centrifugal force.
The weight of the gyroscope became lessened to a very large or even total degree.
A wheel of twice the weight would show the same results providing the gyroscope or system( Laithwaite and the gyroscope) were rotated fast enough.
The system does not change weight, but the weight of the gyroscope and mounting shaft are transferred to force vertically downwards through the centre of system rotation.
I must suggest you prove at least some of this to yourself Aaron, as it is lot to swallow.
I do not think there is anything overly complicated in proving any of this
Please do so.
Regards,
Sandy
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| Answer: |
Sandy - 27/10/2022 19:50:28
| | | Good evening Harald,
I think I have proved that during precession that neither angular momentum nor centrifugal force play any part in the gyroscope’s ability to climb to its point of least action
If accepted principles are to be believed the system would generate a vertical thrust component of considerable magnitude.
In other words any of my machines should be able to disappear easily through the shed roof and keep going.
At any angle of incidence above zero, simple mechanics demands that a vertical component must be produced.
It will be seen that there is no attempt for the device to thrust upwards
In such a system no vertical component will be measured which suggest that the conservation laws are only the assumption I have often claimed that they were, and are in serious error.
There can be no accelerated mass present in precession or in saturation of such a system (that is excepting the gyroscope itself)
Best regards,
Sandy
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| Answer: |
MakeThingsFly - 27/10/2022 20:55:04
| | | Thank you Sandy, your response was very helpful. I mistakenly asked the same question in my email. Ive often wondered about these thongs, so it was great to hear your experince.
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Harry K. - 28/10/2022 12:02:58
| | | Hi Sandy,
I don't know if I didn't express myself well enough in my last post and that's why you're having a hard time visualizing the experimental setup.
The setup in this experiment has nothing to do with how your machines are set up. Therefore, there are no centrifugal forces acting in advance.
The starting point is that the turntable and the gyroscope are arranged in parallel. This means that the flywheel of the circle is arranged parallel to the turntable. However, the rotation axis of the circle has an arbitrary distance to the rotation axis of the turntable, but must not be congruent.
We are therefore not dealing with a gentleman overhanging gyroscope system, as in your machines. In addition, the swivel axis of the circle can be arranged arbitrarily on the plane of the rotary table.
If you now rotate the turntable in the same sense as the direction of rotation of the gyro, nothing happens. The gyro remains in its horizontal position, i.e. parallel to the turntable.
However, if one turns the turntable in the opposite direction to the direction of rotation of the gyro, the gyro immediately sets itself up, turns 180°, until it has taken the same counter again turntable.
A gyro therefore always tries to take the same counter as the direction of rotation of the system (turntable). It does this so that the system has the lowest energy consumption. This is what I mean by "conservation of energy".
If circles and turntable turn in the same direction, both train pulses add up to a total angular momentum.
If the gyro and turntable rotate in opposite directions, the system loses angular momentum (energy). Due to the conservation of energy, this "lost" angular momentum is converted to swing the gyro. The rotation in the pulse is thus transformed offset by 90° in order to tilt the gyroscope.
I know you have your own way of thinking about this. However, perhaps this topic will be Hi Sandy,
I don't know if I didn't express myself well enough in my last post and that's why you're having a hard time visualizing the experimental setup.
The setup in this experiment has nothing to do with how your machines are set up. Therefore, there are no centrifugal forces acting in advance.
The starting point is that the turntable and the gyroscope are arranged in parallel. This means that the flywheel of the circle is arranged parallel to the turntable. However, the rotation axis of the circle has an arbitrary distance to the rotation axis of the turntable, but must not be congruent.
We are therefore not dealing with a gentleman overhanging gyroscope system, as in your machines. In addition, the swivel axis of the circle can be arranged arbitrarily on the plane of the rotary table.
If you now rotate the turntable in the same sense as the direction of rotation of the gyro, nothing happens. The gyro remains in its horizontal position, i.e. parallel to the turntable.
However, if one turns the turntable in the opposite direction to the direction of rotation of the gyro, the gyro immediately sets itself up, turns 180°, until it has taken the same counter again turntable.
A gyro therefore always tries to take the same counter as the direction of rotation of the system (turntable). It does this so that the system has the lowest energy consumption. This is what I mean by "conservation of energy".
If circles and turntable turn in the same direction, both train pulses add up to a total angular momentum.
If the gyro and turntable rotate in opposite directions, the system loses angular momentum (energy). Due to the conservation of energy, this "lost" angular momentum is converted to swing the gyro. The rotation in the pulse is thus transformed offset by 90° in order to tilt the gyroscope.
I know you have your own way of thinking about this. However, perhaps this topic will be of interest to other readers who are concerned with this matter.
of interest to other readers who are concerned with this matter.
Regards Harald
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| Answer: |
Sandy - 28/10/2022 13:04:45
| | | Good day Harald,
I do realise that your system is totally different from mine.
The only point i was attempting to make it clear was the fact that the momentum conservation laws are completely at odds with the reasons that my gyros will climb vertically to the point of least action.
No more no less.
Regards,
Sandy
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| Answer: |
Sandy - 28/10/2022 13:09:16
| | | Good day Aaron,
I have repeatedly tried to send photographs to your email address
They can be sent anywhere else.
I sent a message to you about this problem and it is also held up in my "OUTBOX"
Is someone blocking you or maybe blocking me?
Regards,
Sandy
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| Answer: |
MakeThingsFly - 28/10/2022 13:42:11
| | | Hi Sandy,
The emails were flagged by Gmail because they had the same name but with different emails. (a security check incase someone is trying to impersonate someone else). I clicked the box that they are fine, so there hopefully shouldn't be anymore issues.
-Aaron
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| Answer: |
MakeThingsFly - 28/10/2022 14:18:17
| | | Harald is right about "If you now rotate the turntable in the same sense as the direction of rotation of the gyro, nothing happens. The gyro remains in its horizontal position, i.e. parallel to the turntable.
However, if one turns the turntable in the opposite direction to the direction of rotation of the gyro, the gyro immediately sets itself up, turns 180°, until it has taken the same counter again turntable."
I've found this to be true in my experiments as well. To run the test, take a toy gyroscope with a guard that surrounds the disk. Add two posts (I used nails) to the disk guard, directly opposite of each other.
Then spin up the gyroscope, and hold both of the new posts (the gyroscope disk should be laying flat, not upright). One post should point towards you, the other away from you. Then swing your arms left to right, then right to left. The gyroscope will want to flip 180 degrees with each change of direction.
-Aaron
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| Answer: |
Harry K. - 30/10/2022 10:00:11
| | | Hello Aaron,
thank you very much for confirming the experiment. Did you just try this now, or earlier?
There are many more unusual things to report about the behavior of gyroscopes.
Regards Harald
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MakeThingsFly - 30/10/2022 22:00:42
| | | Hi Harold,
I discovered it a while back when testing a gyroscope at different angles. I found that if I held a gyroscope so that the top of the wheel spun towards me and I moved the gyroscope to the right (holding the right side stem), the left side would rise. when moving to the left (still holding the right side stem), the left side would lower. So I added a couple of new posts so I wouldn't have to hold either side's stem, and low and behold the gyroscope flips 180 degrees when first changing directions.
-Aaron
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Miklos Somos - 09/11/2022 18:44:53
| | | Dear Harald,
the turntable experiment is a nice one.
Have you considered, what happens if every object in the experiment is geometrically perfect: the turntable and the gyro is perfectly balanced and rigid, there isn’t any woble or slack. The axis of rotation of the turntable and the gyro are perfectly aligned in the beginning, and no external perturbation or exitation on the gyro is present.
What happens then, if one starts to turn the turntable counter to the rotation of the gyro?
I’m happy to see some activity here.
Miklos
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Glenn Hawkins - 10/11/2022 05:42:05
| | | Hello fellows,
You get the same effects by sitting a thin plate of ice on a smooth table and using it as a base to set a heaver gyro onto it. If you then rotate the ice in the gyro in a precession direction at precession speed, it and the ice grid will remain in alinement. Both the ice plate and gyro will circle in the precession direction while the gyro resists falling. I think of it as a closed system. I think that is right. Correct me if I am wrong. Keep it up. Good show all.
Glenn,
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Harry K. - 10/11/2022 08:39:30
| | | Hello Miklos,
I am very happy to hear from you! I wanted to write you an email to ask how you are doing. Glad you are still interested in the gyro topic!
I think that under the described perfect conditions, the gyro builds up a counter torque to the rotation of the turntable, until the turntable is rotated in the opposite direction to the direction of rotation of the gyro.
If this counter-torque is overcome at the turntable, it costs less energy for the gyro to rotate about its center of mass instead of decelerating the turntable. Therefore, the gyro rotates around its freely defined pivot point to maintain its angular momentum and to avoid the counter-rotation (caused by the turntable) until its direction of rotation is identical to the direction of rotation of the turntable. Then both angular momentums add up to a total angular momentum.
I'm sure you can explain this more scientifically.
Best regards
Harald
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Glenn Hawkins - 10/11/2022 21:19:41
| | | Hello fellows,
You get the same effects by sitting a heavy gyroscope on a turnstile. If you then rotate the turnstile in the direction of precession but at an increased speed the gyroscope will lift toward the vertical. Oppositely, if you slow the turnstile the gyroscope will descend. You will have married the two together and it is then a closed system. This behavior is because of deflections in the circumferences of the gyroscope whether they occur fast or slow. I explained all this in the posts below as to how deflections function. Although such behavior is more complicated in detail, basically, deflections cause the curious effects. Keep it up. Good show fellows.
Glenn,
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Harry K. - 11/11/2022 16:27:03
| | | Hello Miklos again,
I think I know now what you are getting at with the "perfect" conditions ;-)
I have done more tests.
Initial condition (Glenn, please read):
1 gyro or flywheel is mounted on a turntable with a freely selectable distance to the axis of rotation of the turntable. The gyro is mounted so that it can swivel. This swivelling axis is mounted at right angles (horizontally) to the rotary plate's axis of rotation (vertically). However, the orientation of the swivel axis is arbitrary, i.e. the position on the plane (parallel to the plane of the turntable) is freely selectable.
If the gyro or flywheel is exactly aligned with the plane of the turntable, there is no play in the bearings, there are no vibrations or turbulence caused by external influences and all other possible influences (imbalance, friction, etc.) are eliminated, the gyro will gradually lose its angular momentum when the turntable is rotated in the opposite direction to the direction of rotation of the gyro,
By this measure, the angular momentum of the gyro is transferred to the turntable in the opposite direction.
In reality (not perfect conditions), however, it looks like the gyro will swivel 180° at the slightest skew until its direction of rotation coincides with that of the turntable.
I find it interesting that energy is necessary (torque to accelerate the turntable) to transfer the angular momentum of the gyroscope in the opposite direction to the turntable.
Where does this energy go? Is this an "energy dissipation machine? :-)
I am curious about your opinion and of course the opinion of others.
Best regards
Harald
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Glenn Hawkins - 13/11/2022 11:13:44
| | | Dear Herald,
Thanks for noticing me. I hesitate to disagree with you but I explained a long time ago how a gyroscope works, yet nobody alludes to it.
Suppose there is no friction at the pivot. Suppose the round knob on the shaft is suspended above a magnetically reverse polarity. The gyroscope and plate would not act upon one another. No force transfer could take place therefore you know there is a bit of friction between the two objects in your experiment.
The turning of the plate drives the gyroscope to either force forward or force rearward. You don’t need a plate to see what happens. If you push forward a precessing gyroscope with your finger it will rise. If you slow the precession the gyro descends or falls. In both instances, turntable and finger, you have either added or detracted force to or from precession. That is why Laithwaite’s wheel rises.
This is correct, Herald:
“. . . the gyro will gradually lose its angular momentum when the turntable is rotated in the opposite direction to the direction of rotation of the gyro.”
Sorry, this is incorrect.
“By this measure, the angular momentum of the gyro is transferred to the turntable in the opposite direction.”
In truth, opposite turntable rotation merely slows the deflections, which are the result of two opposite forces working against one another. Momentum is not transferred. It is about momentum opposing momentum.
A gyroscope can drive us to strange conclusions but in the end, it is all about mechanical action, which is always caused and effect. I have explained precisely but if no one is willing to do a hard study of my difficult-to-understand text and then engage. Instead of doing either, everyone ignores the understanding and explanations that took me so many years to develop correctly, then that is their right not to try and never know.
Herald, you are very bright and learned. I respect your work. I simply disagree.
Take care,
Glenn,
///////////////////////
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By this measure, the angular momentum of the gyro is transferred to the turntable in the opposite direction.
In reality (not perfect conditions), however, it looks like the gyro will swivel 180° at the slightest skew until its direction of rotation coincides with that of the turntable.
I find it interesting that energy is necessary (torque to accelerate the turntable) to transfer the angular momentum of the gyroscope in the opposite direction to the turntable.
Where does this energy go? Is this an "energy dissipation machine? :-)
I am curious about your opinion and of course the opinion of others.
Best regards
Harald
Harald
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Glenn Hawkins - 13/11/2022 11:16:40
| | | The paragraphs after the bottom of my post ///////////////////////////////////
marks should not have been put there. Please ignore.
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Glenn Hawkins - 13/11/2022 14:16:04
| | | I am sorry, Harold. None of this matters but. . . FORCE to rotate a flywheel, Energy held in rotation as MOMENTUM, FORCE extracted from momentum by slowing the wheel down. You already know. I would not argue the point. How silly of me. Excuse me again. Have a good day.
Glenn,
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Brian Morris - 22/02/2023 16:13:47
| | | Hi Harald
I think you are correct about the 180 degree flip. It is an unstable configuration and the slightest deviation will cause the gyro to precess as it always must.
“the gyro will gradually lose its angular momentum when the turntable is rotated in the opposite direction to the direction of rotation of the gyro,”
From this one can assume that the flywheel eventually becomes stationary,
relative to the turntable
But only relative to the turntable.
If you imagine that the flywheel is now moved inwards until the axes are co-axial it will be clear that the flywheel is still rotating as fast as ever it was.
Momentus
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Jimmy - 15/05/2023 17:35:34
| | | Hi Sandy,
May I ask if you've experimented with a fluidic gyroscope before, or tried applying it to your own invention to observe the forces at work?
I'm experimenting with developing a fluid gyroscope device using principles I've seen in action in video's such as this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSIzyk5Mjko&pp=ygUnbWFraW5nIG1lcmN1cnkgc3BpbiBpbiBhIG1hZ25ldGljIGZpZWxk
Unlike the abovementioned device I would expect a closed, sealed ring would be more effective as a gyroscope because you could accelerate the fluid conductor inside to it's limit without it disappearing over the edge, thus giving rise to gyroscopic forces without the need for bearings or wear and tear on the most usually stressed areas wearing down over constant high velocity motion.
I hypothesise there would be the ability to reduce a lot of friction forces as work, especially the air drag on spinning components with traditional gyroscopes. Also the safety factor of no externally rapid moving components.
I was thinking that within the sealed ring it would also be worth experimenting with completely filled with mercury/gallium/indium type compounds, partially filled with noble gases or vacuum and varying levels of such whilst differing temperatures of operation to find the best rotation velocity and gyroscopic force output.
Would be very grateful for your thoughts.
TIA
Jimmy
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Glenn Hawkins - 01/06/2023 16:40:58
| | | Hello, you are always interesting good guys,
Of the several types of gyroscopes I had, two were made of green see-through plastic. It was donut shaped with the inside filled with water and housed inside an outer ring. I liked it and they only cost about five bucks back then. When you pulled the string-like gear the fluid would circulate. The gyroscope acted just like most gyroscopes except when it ran down it would roll around in a circle on a table via the outer ring. I have tried to find another one for sale on the internet but they are no longer listed.
My good regards to all,
Glenn
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Brian Morris - 08/07/2023 15:06:38
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Hi Jimmy
A figure of eight tube with only one loop filled with mercury gives a gyro which changes the direction of rotation as the fluid is propelled around by magnetic induction.
This also changes torque and precession.
This idea set me on the road to my fully variable gear-less power transmission. I found a better way to reverse the gyros so never tried it out.
Momentus
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