Question |
| Asked by: |
dave brown |
| Subject: |
Sandy, you figure it out? |
| Question: |
You've been gone a while and i hope you have.
I've run out of money and want to see this thing fly.
send me an email for my idea or i'll wait as long as i can and post it here.
It's the only way it can work. in a sensible manner. not complicated really.
i just can't afford to do it on a decent scale and am impatient.
not joking, it's a real idea.
if you don't have access to my email address, let me know. |
| Date: |
22 September 2005
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Answers (Ordered by Date)
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| Answer: |
dave brown - 23/09/2005 02:33:27
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| | Correction.
Oops, sorry. You Have found it. That has been seen.
Now you are looking for the wow factor setup.
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| Answer: |
Sandy Kidd - 23/09/2005 06:00:03
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| | Dave,
Just post it here.
Sandy
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| Answer: |
dave brown - 01/10/2005 04:47:51
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| | Ok.
First you have to get that center of mass away from the bearings. Not much for safety.
Now you have a once, supported at both ends, stable gyro which is a non stop ball of terror.
Then you have to use 2, I now see why, for stability and a needed opposing force for those you don't want.
also:
This now precessing-on-it's-own gyro can be picked up at one end and continue the precessing, or picked up at the other end and... haven't tried it. Don't have the gear.
Also, if you look at last part of heretic clip, he says they figured it out. Look at his patent idea and listen to the problem he states. Now imagine a barrel shaped gyro with bearings at one end, and the center of mass of the barrel part can be moved back and forth in relation to the gyro. To one side then the other.
BE CAREFUL. I can only imagine this thing as a death trap at high speed and high mass.
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| Answer: |
dave brown - 01/10/2005 04:49:41
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| | Um, I mean in relation to the bearings, at the end there.
(edit feature would help. :)
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| Answer: |
dave brown - 01/10/2005 04:57:08
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| | Not enough?
ok, why offset center of mass?
well, a gyro, contrary to beliefs after watching one orbit on a shaft, wants to keep it's center where it is, when it is being torqued that is.
Now with bearings only one side, the flywheel, if you will, is now giving a force in one direction.
NO no no you say, it will torque the shaft about the bearings.
- not based on the above fact about center of mass.
-- you will have to test and retest. BE CAREFUL.
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| Answer: |
dave brown - 02/10/2005 02:16:30
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| | Now, take Sandy's device as seen in the heretic,
put 1 shaft, ensure horizontal for best effect,
place the drive outside of the flywheels,
- the further, maybe the better,
now put a flywheel on each side of the shaft,
bearing end closer to middle,
again, keep center of mass close to bearings,
Base must be kept from turning.
options: (use steel balls with enough out of middle for shaft)
1) try 1 flywheel with bearings past middle but center of mass just a hair on forced-end side.
2) 2 flywheels as in option 1
- they will be side-by-side, not quite through middle
- their shafts will need a housing so as to enable an S support between them through middle and
-- supported up with a straight bar to an arc which is part of the moveable system.
3) to fly it if it works
- use smaller versions of what you just made in #2 and have them vertical,
- attached to outside of now moveable frame to prevent back twist from orbital thrust.
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| Answer: |
dave brown - 03/10/2005 04:59:13
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| | More:
now that we are forcing the flywheel(s) in an orbit,
the gyro will try to rotate,
good.
due to the bearing setup, we are now forcing it in a way that will help the force.
odd. good.
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| Answer: |
dave brown - 03/10/2005 05:17:57
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| | Well, once the system starts moving that is.
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| Answer: |
dave brown - 03/10/2005 10:43:54
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| | What may be confusing is the direction of the bottom of the flywheel as it is forced to raised the bearing end.
It is opposite to expected.
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| Answer: |
dave brown - 07/10/2005 06:01:40
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| | Taking a refreshed look at Sandy's machine:
I see that the setup is functionally the same except:
(and if you can get the bearings just outside of center of mass,
you can put the bearing in the middle.)
By forcing in a larger orbit, less torque is required.(ft/lbs)
By forcing where it is now, less feet from pivot point requires more torque,
and as we want the bearings in the middle,
we have to force on the 'outside' anyways, which is all good.
Forcing further out, and 'bearing' near the center of mass,
will give more output from same source of force.
Now we are translating a high rpm, low torque force,
for a zero rpm, large vector force.
As the only thing needed to move an object is a large force,
and the source of force is moving with the object(system),
we get, if the force is greater than the weight(on earth), an accelerated object(system).
Sandy's system, in space, would accelerate, once the back force created by forcing the orbit is cancelled.
The setup, once finalized, made again in opposite direction: Over-under system, could be used in place of the vertical ones I spoke of earlier, to counter the back force.
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| Answer: |
dave brown - 07/10/2005 06:05:53
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| | I must say,
when I started with all this, I ofcourse had no idea about Sandy's findings.
It is a good thing, or I would have spent all my time figuring it out, instead of doing the dreaming to get me to this point.
And would have, in the end, probably have gone nowhere. :)
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| Answer: |
dave brown - 12/10/2005 15:37:20
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| | Correction:
2 up, should have said:
Now we are translating a high velocity, low torque force,
for a zero rpm, large vector force.
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| Answer: |
dave brown - 20/10/2005 20:31:44
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| | Hmmmm, no feedback.
Is this a good sign or bad? :)
Is / has someone tried it?
I sort-of did, it bent the metal strip and pinched my finger.
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| Answer: |
Sandy Kidd - 21/10/2005 07:15:11
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| | Dear Dave ,
I do admire your keenness, you are obviously much younger than I am.
Anyhow the “thing” is a lot simpler than you are trying to make it.
Forget the physics and forget the mathematics, they are just clouding the issue. Simple mechanics is all that is required to solve the puzzle.
It transpires that, because of the uniqueness of inertial drive systems, it is a bit of an unusual mechanical engineering problem. Just unusual.
Mathematicians and physicists will get their chance to refine it all, soon enough.
However, methinks their time will be taken up initially, trying to make friends of Euler and Newton.
Thankfully somebody got it not quite right.
Sandy.
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| Answer: |
dave brown - 21/10/2005 14:22:10
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| | no: 1
yes: 0
Thank you
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| Answer: |
d brown - 01/04/2019 16:37:00
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| | New angle on this.
(I see my flaw in the original version.)
First I want to say that my original posts were poorly written here. I even checked my wording years later and it still made sense then; oh well, blaming it on the aliens...
Now:
1) I will better describe the barrel and a new setup.
2) I will intruduce a controllable force.
1)
(I'll use items we know to explain the setup; the weight will be all wrong.)
- Take the top off a 50 gallon drum.
- Put a bearing in the center of the bottom for a shaft to go through.
- Put a shaft down through the middle of the barrel so it is sticking out past the top edge and the bottom, through the bearing, a few feet. (shaft should be fixed to bearing now; no sliding.)
- Lay the barrel arrangement on its side with the 2 ends of the shaft on their own fixed support.
- Each support will have a spring both under and over the shaft end it supports.
-- There will be no sideways(twist) movement wanted as that will be the direction of precessional force.
- (Of course you could always flip this whole thing on its side if you wish.)
- (Alternately the barrel can be attached to the shaft and have bearings at the shaft ends.)
- (You will have to figure out how to spin it yet, it is all stationary.)
- Place all of this on a board with wheels or whatever you imagine will work for you.
- Do you see now what I meant in my first post about it being a self-precessing entity? (Don't try to read what's earlier than this post. It will only hurt your brain.)
2)
- With the barrel being steel, setting up an Alternating Current electromagnet under the non-bearing("loose") end would be an incorporated greater-than-gravity force.
-- You can now have and reverse your gravity at a frequency of your choosing, or on, or off. And the pull always gets stronger when on; inverse square law.
- (If the whole thing is steel the magnet will have a stronger affect on the barrel.)
- (** I'll give one heads-up: Lower frequncies on a coil draw higher currents.
--- Example: I can use a 50Hz European transformer in the Americas at 60Hz but a 60Hz is not designed for use at 50Hz in Europe; it would need to be downrated.)
Thanks for waiting 14 years. :)
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| Answer: |
d brown - 01/04/2019 16:52:47
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| | Incorporation:
- If you make a hand-sized version of this and put it at the end of a stick in a box, it should precess like a normal gyro in a box as in the videos by Eric Laithwaite.
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| Answer: |
d brown - 01/04/2019 17:02:52
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| | LOL
I did it again didn't I.
Use a normal gyro with stepper motors on a screw at one end to force it. No springs needed, just a pivot at other end.
Electromagnet may be better control, though.
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| Answer: |
d brown - 02/04/2019 00:30:49
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| | And
Please keep in mind that what I'm working towards solving here is the need to get the gyro back to a start/home position without adversely affecting the system.
That is why I prefer the elecrtromagnet way.
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| Answer: |
d brown - 02/04/2019 03:08:26
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| | I just realized that to use th electromagnetic way, the barrel has to be magnetized seperately to get the push-pull capability.
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| Answer: |
d brown - 02/04/2019 04:46:57
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| | Expanding on setup:
- The motorized screw is to drive up one end of the gyro that will force forward into saw-teeth in the floor, to propel.
- to reset, the motor will reverse to pull down on the gyro end, against the bar(s) the motor tracks, and the ratchet mechanism in the base of that end of the gyro will allow the gyro to move to the reset/start/home position without forcing the object being propelled.
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| Answer: |
d brown - 02/04/2019 05:18:39
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| | - To aleviate any confusion, the reason for the reset is that the gyro will go up a bit as it tries to precess and we need to be able to get it back down. (gyro will need a high RPM to hope for any precessional force, too.)
- Although if we force backwards to reset gyro, we may not need anything special at all; just 2 motors. The 2nd to force backwards as the screw winds the other/down way.
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| Answer: |
d brown - 02/04/2019 20:41:12
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| | Down to one motor and one spring.
- The motor creates "up" force on gyro end.
- Gyro precesses and squishes spring into frame of your mobile structure.
- Reset by relaxing motor force and spring then pushes back on gyro which precesses "down".
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