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2 May 2024 20:51
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Question |
| Asked by: |
Glenn Hawkins |
| Subject: |
THE POSSIBILITY OF FLUTTER |
| Question: |
THE POSSIBILITY OF FLUTTER
EDH’s machine works in a concept of logic. Whether it will work in actuality remains to be presented and independently tested. Incidentally I was first wrong, saying that the idea wouldn’t work in concept. It does. It appears for all the world to work in theoretical logic. EDH named a strange function by which it would work as ‘Fluttering’. I now come to agree with that concept as being a viable theory.
There is another work, far lengthier going on here based on EDH’s concept, but varying from the most important part, the ‘Flutter’. Instead the search is for an elusive ‘balance point’ that I do not believe has begun. The idea of a balance point has been explained this way. Two non-spinning gyros equal distances apart are rotated around a common pivot so that centrifuge is produced in each. The gyroscopes are then gradually caused to spin, increasing their RPMs slowly presumably by an attached motor operated by remote control. The gyros will eventually rise by a process that is actually the beginning of a vertical precession. Once the gyroscopes rise to approximately 45 degrees their RPMs are slowed. The idea is to find the variable speeds for an equilibrium-balanced position in space between the centrifuge of the gyros rotated around a pivot, and the RPMs of the gyroscopes, which under such conditions cause lift. Therefore in this balance, the gyros maintaining the 45 o angle pull themselves and the entire apparatus upwards without creating a downward ‘opposite’ reaction. The problem with such a concept I perceive is that, because precession consumes energy in order for it to function at all, in or out of gravity, precession which is ‘upward lift’ will always by its nature overcome the accompaniment of centrifuge. That is, in order for precession to take place is must overcome the accompanying centrifuge, which is an integral part of precession and sub-order to it. That is centrifuge must me weaker than the drain upon precession, or there is no precession at all. There is argument here contrary to my conclusion, but also there is resistance to testing. Mr. Kidd forced what would have been a balance point. He forced gyroscopes to maintain at 60o. If force to deny a continual rise is necessary then there was no balance point. Sandy worked with this configuration for decades and is believed by many to be the world's foremost living athority on thisa subject, yet some today will not give credence to his knowledge, nor leson to his advise about this illusionary ‘balance point’ not being possible. Well, it’s no skin off my teeth. Follow those efforts if you like.
The Flutter is another matter. If in attempting to reach the impossible ‘balance point’ the spin speed of the gyros are remotely controlled to instantly speed up and instantly speed down therefore there should be an attainable flutter up and flutter down as in vibration, which might hold the gyroscopes to fluctuate between forty and fifty degrees and thus this system would seem to lift as if there were being imposed a variegating, elusive balance point. This elusive ‘balance point’, is not actual, but imigined. EDH has already done all the work, totally. It is a flutter, not a balance point that might work. I do not argue for it, but I cannot argue against it. It is ingenious.
Glenn,
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| Date: |
12 July 2008
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Answers (Ordered by Date)
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| Answer: |
Sandy Kidd - 17/07/2008 07:51:44
| | | Hello again Glenn,
I am following your line of thinking Glenn but for the life of me I cannot see how any of Newton’s laws can be defied if flutter as we are calling it can be developed.
I have also considerable doubts about any set up which could change a gyro’s speed up and down fast enough to create the effect.
That is not to say that it cannot be done but I have considerable doubts as to which direction any thrust would come out.
Maybe I a wrong but I am still of the considered opinion that any gyroscope on its own no matter how manipulated will ever deliver inertial thrust.
If the effect could be generated I will agree that there is a possibility that it could be utilised in a devious fashion to generate thrust, but I find the whole idea hard to design, hard to build, and even harder to operate, in fact not worth the effort involved. There are much simpler ways.
Howsoever I could get a little bit enthusiastic if some bright individual shows me how to generate this flutter, as I am not convinced.
Regards,
Sandy.
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| Answer: |
graeme - 17/07/2008 13:19:51
| | | Hi Glenn and Sandy,
Spindle servo motors on modern CNC machine tools that I have experience of, can accelerate from 0 to 15000 rpm in 2 secs and back to zero in same time. So its not out with the realms of possibility to control the speed of the disks up and down a few hundred rpm's in a fraction of a second continuously under program control, I admit this is out with the scope of the home enthusiast, but the hardware exists now and is in use in many different sectors of industry. The technology also exists to manipulate one or many disks in 3D space through complex paths in repetition or varying degrees movement, more complex than any mechanical system ever could. Once the basic system is constructed, it could then be used to experiment without further outlay in materials or hardware the paths that produce the required forces of thrust. These movements could then be analysed and fine tuned via feedback load meters from the servo motors used.
Best regards
graeme
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| Answer: |
Glenn Hawkins - 17/07/2008 20:53:25
| | | Dear Sandy and graeme,
Hi Sandy, I cannot disagree with anything you say. In the best logical framework I am capable neither can I find a reason why Flutter would not work and apparently you do not object to this reasoning either. But I am with you. You say let “some bright individual show me how to generate this flutter as I am not convinced.” And you say, “There are much simpler ways.” I agree. I agree. Still I find the EDH logic solid, though I mentioned the need for independent testing and I’m sticking to my ending statement above, which was, ” I do not argue for it, but I cannot argue against it. It is ingenious.” And, by the way so is your work, Sandy Kidd and I look forward to a report on the new machine you are building. Of course the saturation zone in Ichmeler may be quit remarkably different as where the rain in Spain stays mainly in the plain as has been proven by the gyroscopic machines built by, George Bernard Shaw.
Sincerely,
Glenn
Hi graeme, Well… obviously you know what you are talking about and you express this information so clearly. Thank you and I hope you do more posting. You may be able to help a lot with technical information and in other ways of course. Where have I seen your name before, on an engineering site?
Best regards,
Glenn
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| Answer: |
graeme - 19/07/2008 15:36:14
| | | Hello Glenn,
I don't think it was on an engineering site, I have posted on this forum a few times in the past - http://www.gyroscopes.org/forum/questions.asp?id=407 Sometimes people can't see the wood for the trees blocking their view, the technology described earlier has been around for quite sometime now, and it advances everyday. Even the linear motor (Thanks to the late Eric Laithwaite) is now employed within CNC systems, for example rapid traverse speeds of 100 metres a minute are now common on some systems. The point is, this technology is tried and trusted, the construction of machine to drive a spinning disk about in 3D space wouldn't be that complex, when you look at some of the machines that exist today already using the hardware. Getting funding should be easier as investors are not funding a project on unknown technology. I Had a conversation with Sandy (Hi Sandy) around 10 years ago about this very subject, and both agreed that the cost was prohibitive to construct such a system. But I’ve been thinking that if a system is constructed, it would be like having a blank canvas, where you could investigate all sorts of phenomena like flutter etc, attributed to the spinning disk. The list is endless regarding the types of experiments that could be done, the only drawback would be our limits of imagination. This would also allow the exploration of recirculating linear systems, whereby the disk or disks are moved in a fashion to create force, like gradually tilted to a point and then returned to a neutral orientation before being moved to the start point of the cycle, to begin again its repetitive path or gradually altering path or any path for that matter, I wish I had such a device of my own, But by now I've let the cat out of the bag. The universities should have no problem finding funding but they may be maybe refused when the word gyro is mentioned, a shame really.
So if anyone has loads of cash and want to find out what’s what about the spinning disk, I have the concept of the machine that will find out.
My background Glenn is in engineering, I work with this technology everyday and I'm still fascinated by what possibilities there are.
Best regards
graeme
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| Answer: |
Glenn Hawkins - 19/07/2008 18:27:57
| | | Hi graeme,
I remember you now. Sorry. I put my machine plans away as a lost cause and am into other things now. You understand the problem. Maybe you’ll have better luck.
I will tell you of a daydream I had fun playing with for about half an hour back around 2005. Suppose I won a huge lottery. What would you do with all that money? You couldn’t sanely spend it all in several lifetimes. I smiled and played with my daydream. I would purchase land around Key Largo in the Florida Keys (Simi tropical islands with a road to the mainland) and there build a large medal building complete with small offices and all sorts of machine shop facilities and complete with an instructor and someone to order parts and supplies. Next, a dozen small houses, each with a used boat and a cheep car. Finally I would invite everyone on this site and others I know not on this site to come and live and work freely and unsupervised for a salary to develop all sorts of gyroscopic machines and to share and work together, but also to work alone as desired. Parts etc. would be furnished free. It would be a fun place to live (I already know that) and ideally there’d be no need for financial worries and people of the same, at least in part, mental and emotional make up would be together to finish this research in happiness. I dreamed there would be all kinds of new technology coming out of this adventure. I smiled one last time thinking of all the people of my shared interest I would get to see and talk to and of the strange and wonderful things we would be for the first time in our lives fee and aided to build. Then put the daydream away with the many others that will never come true.
But, this dream is not imposable. I have a list of seven incredibly rich men who have been captivated by the ideas of space flight since they were boys and they are into this mostly as hobbies, but some are building personal rockets to take people into orbit. It you mentioned gyroscopes to them would they throw rocks at you? Maybe not if they realized the probability of new machines and technologies that should come forth that had nothing to do with propulsion. Look what would go into the effort. All of us are enthused about gyroscopes and we are not traditional thinkers, but new with new capabilities and potentials to produce and discover things new and different than others might and we have been involved for many years already. We’d have a head start. You can’t hire that right off the street, or coming out of universities status quo. Some of the things we so easily see in our mind’s eye and take for granted would require years to learn to perceive so effortlessly. I doubt we ourselves know that. So is it isn't imposable that one of these seven men with more money than they’ll ever use might be talked into building this community and turning it lose to create for him. It could even be very profitable in the end. Seaway, the inventor of the two wheel, side-by-side scooter and thousands of other thing has in place and set up exactly like what I am talking about. (Look him up. He is an interesting read) Incidentally his scooter uses gyroscopes big time.
I wonder if we might write a letter outlining all this and all sign it explaining a little of our individual work and send it to each of the seven.
Regards,
Glenn
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| Answer: |
graeme - 20/07/2008 21:42:04
| | | Hi Glenn,
Your daydream sounds great Glenn, a perfect utopia of engineering bliss, free to develop new ideas and technology, a new golden age of invention.
I'll look up the Seaway device, it sounds interesting, I think I've heard about it a number of years ago from a former colleague.
Best regards
graeme
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| Answer: |
Glenn Hawkins - 20/07/2008 22:20:30
| | | Wrong spelling. It is Segway, but instead of looking up Segway, look up Dean Kamen.
Sorry Glenn,
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| Answer: |
PATRICK - 16/11/2008 05:04:21
| | | SEAWAY f kin ammasing that u would not infactualy av nolage n yes i drop th k 4 ure immaturatyt in my very own ne cla se curu pu iyee wo ne suply vas hoy ne cloy enteecclassd
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